ThirumUlar – Ancient Tamil Religion, Agamas, Vedas and Saiva SiththAntham
Topic started by Periyar Arivar (@ cache-rc05.proxy.aol.com) on Sun Mar 23 21:07:36 .
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.
The purpose of this thread is to highlight the differences between Agamas and Vedas. I would like to discuss the topic by providing responses to the Vedic fanatics who are determined to destroy the original religion of South Asia. I believe it is the responsibility of Non-Vedic Agama and non-Agama worshippers to stand up against the threat unleashed by Vedantis and their agents. The Hindutuva movement is a threat not only to Christians, Muslims, and Buddhists, but also to Non-Vedic Hindus.
Agamas describe the Dravidian religious practices and philosophies, whereas the first three Vedas deal primarily with Aryan religious practices. I request everyone to ignore the Aryan/ Dravidian definition used in South Asia. A mere observation of South Asians indicate that 80 to 85 percent of the population is of Dravidian (local people) origin.
The following is from Karuvayan under Tirumular on the Vedas and Saiva Siddhantam thread:
Mon Mar 17 16:12:41 .
"§Å¾§Á¡ ¼¡¸Áõ ¦ÁöÂ¡ Á¢¨ÈÅëø
´Ðï º¢ÈôÒõ ¦À¡Ð×¦Áý ÚûÇ É
¿¡¾ Û¨ÃÂ¢¨Å ¿¡Ê Ä¢Ãñ¼ó¾õ
§À¾Á ¦¾ýÀ÷ ¦ÀÃ¢§Â¡÷ì ¸§À¾§Á."
"The Veda with the Agama is the truth; they are the word of the Lord: these revelations of the Lord are to be studied as the general and the special doctrines; on enquiry they are taken to be different as giving rise to two different sets of conclusions: but to the great ones they are non different."
What ThiruMular states is not Veda with Agama, but Veda and Agama. Veda and Agama are two independent religious doctrines and one does not need the other for survival.
Karuvayan’s interpretation implies that Agama and Veda require each other. It is he who claimed in this forum that Agamas are an integral part of Vedas.
Let me give you the translation of the above:
2397 Veda and Agama Alike Revealed by God
Veda and Agama alike
Are revelations of God,
That is Truth;
The one is general
The other special;
Their goals two, they say;
Search them both,
For the truly learned,
There is difference none.
Let me provide the forum participants the reasoning behind ThirumUlar comparing Agamas with Vedas. ThirmUlar is a Dalit Dravidian, and he is of Kashmir origin. He came to Tamizakam to promote Agama Saivaism. Althogh Vedas were composed due to synthesis of Aryan and Dravidian religious practices, Vedic Brahmins did not recognize Agamas. It holds true for orthodox Vedic Brahmins even today. This is the reason why ThrumUar composed the above stanza.
Had ThirumUlar been alive today, after witnessing the hatred and venom emitted by KaruvAyan on religious minorities, he would have composed the following:
Agamas, Bible, Koran, Vedas
And other religious scriptures
Are revelations of God
That is Truth;
Their goals are different, they say;
Search them all,
For the truly learned,
No difference exists.
In Thirumanthiram, ThrumUlar discusses about Vedanta and SiththAntham. Here, Vedanta is the Vedic philosophy developed in Upanishad. The modern day Vedanta philosophies were developed during a period of 300 to 800 years after Thirumanthiram.
Similarly, SiththAntha philosophy was also refined and enhanced by MeikaNdAr about 600 years after Thirumanthiram. Please note that Thirumanthiram is part of ThirumuRaikaL and it is not one of the philosophical texts of Saiva SiththAntham.
Saiva SiththAntham includes the following:
14 Saiva SiththAntha Philosophical Texts (Tamil)
Saiva ThirumuRaikaL (Tamil)
28 Saiva Agamas (Sanskrit and Tamil*)
*Tamil version is lost and it is time to reintroduce Tamil in Agama temples.
Anything not listed above is not part of Saiva SiththAntham. i.e. Vedas, Ramayana, Mahabharatha, Kama Sutra, Manu Shastra, Bhagaavad Gita and all other Vedic related materials.
Tamil Saivam includes both Agama and non-Agama religious practices. Agama worship is performed on the following deities: Siva, Murugan, Sakti, PiLLaiyar and ThirumAL. Ancient Tamil religious (Non-Agama) practice is performed in KaNNaki, mAri amman, KALI, aiyanAr, vairavar, Naga, and certain Siva and Murugan temples.
It is the responsibility of Tamil Saivaites to protect both Agama and Non-Agama temples. Vedic Hinduism is alien to Tamil culture.
- Old responses
- From: settling scores at the cost of... (@ proxify.com)
on: Sun Aug 31 14:10:22 EDT 2003
//For once, try to look at yourself in the mirror and see if this is what you want your life to be like. //
I know what my life is like and I like it. Can you say the same for yourself?
For centuries you xians and muslims have plundered India. We at the RSS are only now beginning to fight back. The RSS members are the true inheritors of India. The true kings of India. The muggles will be driven out whatever the cost and a pure Bharat will be established. A Hindu Bharat.
~ Anbudan ~
- From: Ashraf (@ 220.127.116.11)
on: Mon Sep 1 01:47:10 EDT 2003
þÉ¢Â ¯ÇÅ¡¸ þýÉ¡¾ ÜÈø
¸É¢Â¢ÕôÀì ¸¡ö ¸Å÷ó¾üÚ.
- From: arunmozhi (@ 161.65-104.adsl.ij.net)
on: Mon Sep 1 02:17:03 EDT 2003
Rightly said.Let us continue our discussions.
- From: Mr. Fun (He has too much Fun) (@ proxify.com)
on: Mon Sep 1 09:24:08 EDT 2003
How does "Mummayiraan" translate into hindi? Is it "Theen Luvde Kabbaal"?
- From: Harish Kumar (@ 18.104.22.168)
on: Fri Sep 5 12:30:00 EDT 2003
I said before it is luvde ke bal.Not kabbal.Please abuse properly.
- From: Mr. Fun (He has too much Fun) (@ proxify.com)
on: Fri Sep 5 21:27:08 EDT 2003
Harish Kumar is a Luvde Ke bal. Now is this correct?
When did you say this before? is there a site for correcting such errors? Does Luvde ke bal harish often post such cuss words?
- From: Madurai Veeran (@ adsl-66-122-62-149.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net)
on: Sat Sep 6 01:31:15 EDT 2003
>>I said before it is luvde ke bal.Not kabbal.Please abuse properly.
But.. don't you have to master all those Dvaitham, Advaitham and such nonsense before you could master the cuss words?
- From: ramesh (@ )
on: Sat Sep 25 03:49:08
hello sir / madam,
im ramesh from bangalore and i liked the site and i'm very much impressed on this and i would like to know wheather i can get the vedas book in tamil version from this mandram to know abt our religion more and more and if possible ple let me know where can i get it and how can i get it if it is there in our mandram,
- From: R.Sri Hari (@ modem6.bayrac3.eureka.lk)
on: Mon Jan 24 13:45:44
"A VERY BRIEF STUDY"
ON THE EVOLUTION OF "SIVA AGAMAMS" IN TAMIL NADU
THE MAHENDRA MALAI IN TAMILNADU A HOLY ABODE OF GOD SIVA
In ancient times there had been mountains in Tamil Nadu which were
held as holy abodes of God Siva and Goddess Sakthi by the Saivites of
Tamil Nadu, as much as Mount Kailash of the Tibetian region, having
their own concepts on the importance and significance of these
mountains coming forth from the Sages & Seers of Tamil Nadu over a
period of time. They were evidently the Mahendra Malai, Pothikai
Malai, An-naa Malai, and the Eengoi Malai .
Among them the Mahendra Malai draws our importance, as this mountain
is not only held as the holy abode of God Siva and Goddess Sakthi,
but also related with the evolution of the original Agamams. Mahendra
Malai was also known as the Manthira Maamalai.
The following references confirms the association of God Siva with
"Sinththanaikku ariya Sivame pottri
Manthira maamalai meyay pottri"
Thiruvaasakam by Saint Maanikkavaasakar, Pottri Thiruakaval, Line 205
"Thuu vellai neerani emperumaan
sothi Mahenthiranathan vanthu
thevar tholumpatham vaiththa Easan"
Thiruvaasakam by Saint Maanikkavaasakar, Thiruvarththai, Verse 9
"mani neer aruvi Mahenthira mamalai mel uraiyum
kuravaa...Thillai ambalak kooththane"
9th Thirumurai by Saint Thirumaalikaithevar, Pathikam 3, Verse 1
"varuneer aruvi Mahenthirap pon malaiyin
Malaimahalukku arulum kuru nee"
9th Thirumurai by Saint Thirumaalikaithevar, Pathikam 3, Verse 10
THE LOCATION OF MAHENDRA MALAI
The Mahendra mountain range was situated in the extreme south of the
present Tamil Nadu, evidently stretching beyond the present Kanya
Kumari region, which formed a part of the Pandiya Nadu of that
However with a great sea erosion taking place many mountains
including Pahruli river and vast tracts of land of the Kumari region
belonging to then Pandiyan king submerged in to the sea. In this
tragedy the southern most part of the `Mahendra Mountain
range' too sank into the sea, while the northern part of same with a
single tall peak known as Mahendra Malai survived.
The survived peak of the Mahendra mountain range could be seen even
today, south of Taamiraparani river in the present Kanyakumari
district, almost midway between the Thirukkurungudi and Bhutapandi
having a height of 1,654 Metres (5,425 Ft), and presently called as
the Mahendragiri. (Giri is mountain - in Sanskrit & Malai in Tamil)
The following references confirms the sinking of the southern part of
the Mahendra Mountain range, and the present location of the
Among them, the reference from Valmiki Ramayana further indicates
that the remaining portion of the Mahendra mountain was lying down
south of India beyond the Taamiraparani river in between the then
Pandiyan capital and the sea in the days of the Ramayana epic, and
even today. The reference is as follows.
"…….From there you shall cross over the river
Taamraparni…….from there that is divine and fully golden and
decorated with pearls & gemstones you shall see the Pandiyan
kingdom's castle door. From there you reach the ocean and on
resolving - the resolve of the purpose. There "with its one end
verily penned in by Sage Agastya inside the ocean, the fortunate Mt
Mahendra is there", with its marvellous pinnacles and the best among
Valmiki Ramayana – Kiskinda Kanda (English Translation)
"aluntha Mahenthiraththu antharam putkku
9th Thirumurai by Saint Thirumaalikaithevar, Pathikam 3, Verse 5
The above reference clearly mentions of the portion of the Mahendra
Malai which never sunk (aluntha)
"then munai vattil ma Mayenthirame"
Kooththa Nool by Saththanaar – Chapter titled Thari Nool
"Pahtruli aatrudan panmalai aduk kaththu Kumarik Kodum kodung
kadal kolla vada thisai Gangaiyum Imayamum kondu then thisai aanda
Silappathikarem – Mathurai Kandam – Kaadu kaan kaathai -
The last reference seen above in the Tamil epic poem Silappathikarem
states "Praise to the Thennavan (Pandiyan king) who on the fearce
sea submerging the riverPahruli with many range of mountains
including the Kumari range, conquerd the Gangai (river) and Imayam
(Himalayan mountain) and ruled from the south".
Among the many range of mountains that submerged possibly was also
the southern part of then Mahendra mountain range, as Silappathikarem
states it was the territory of the Pandiyan king, which falls in line
with what is stated in the Valmiki Ramayana that beyond the Pandiyan
kingdom was the Mahendra mountain.
AGAMAMS REVEALED BY GOD SIVA TO FOUR MUNIVARS ON THE MAHENTHIRA MALAI
The Kooththanool a Sangam period Tamil dance treatise, confirms that
the four original Agamams were revealed by God Siva to
(the "visualising senses" of) four Munivars (on their intense
worship of him) on the Mahendra Mountain. The Agamams were also known
"Manthira maamalai Yanthira thavacil vadakku parithi kidakkap
poam vali, naalvarkku Thanthira Naan Marai koorum Kooththanum
Kooththiyum iyatriya kooththai kandaan Agaththiyan"
Kooththa Nool - by Saaththanaar, Line 8
The Manthira maamalai referred here is the Mahendra Mountain which is
further confirmed by the the following references:
"Manthiram enba Mayenthira Vetpe" (Vetpu - Mountain)
Kooththa Nool – Chapter Thari Nool, Line 15.
The Tamil Saiva Saint Maanikka-vaasagar of Tamil Nadu too confirms
this truth in the Sivapuraanam of his work Thiruvaasakam, by stating
that God Siva revealed Agamams on Mahenthira Malai.
The reference is as follows.
"Mannu maamalai Mahenthiram athanil
sonna Akamam thotruviththu aruliyum"
Thiruvaasakam – Section on Sivapuranam, Page 22
"Maa etaakiya Akamam vaankiyum
matravai thammai Mahenthiraththu irunthu
Uttra iym muhankalaal panintharuliyum"
Thiruvaasakam – Section on Sivapuranam, Page 23
"Thattham samayath thahuthi nillaathaarai
aththan Sivan sonna Agama Nool Neri
eththandamum seyum ammaiyil…."
Thirumanthiram – verse 247
THE ORIGINAL SIVA AGAMAMS AND IT'S SUBSEQUENT GROWTH
Agamas were originally four in number grew later to nine and finally
ended up at twenty eight. The following references confirms the
"naalvarkku Thanthira Naan Marai koorum Kooththanum
Kooththa Nool - by Saaththanaar, Line 10
"….Munthi uthikkintra muulan madavarai
Thanthiram onpathu saarvu muvayiram
Sunthara Agama sol molinth thane"
Thirumanthiram – verse 101
"Anjana Meni Arivaiyor paahaththan
Anjodu irupaththu muntru ula Agamam
Anjali koopphi arupaththu aruvarum
Anjaa muhaththil arum porul kettathe"
Thirumanthiram – verse 57
NAMES OF THE ORIGINAL AGAMAMS
It is not clear which were the first four Agamams revealed by God
Siva to (the visualising senses) of the four Munivars on Mahenthira
However with the growth of these Agamams to nine, we are made aware
of the names of these nine Agamams by the Tamil Saiva Saint
Thirumoolar, in his Tamil religious text the Thirumanthiram. In fact
he says that his Thirumanthiram is the essence of these nine Agamams.
This is confirmed as follows.
"Muulan madavarai Thanthiram onpathu saarvu (mu)vayiram
sundara Agama sol molinthaane"
Thirumanthiram - Sirrappu Payiram, verse 101
The names of these nine Agamams are as follows.
(1) Kaarana Agamam
(2) Kamika Agamam
(3) Veera Agamam
(4) Siththa Agamam
(5) Vaathula Agamam
(6) Viyamala Agamam
(7) Kaaloththira Agamam
(8) Suppira Agamam
(9) Mahuta Agamam
The names of the nine Agamams mentioned above are confirmed by the
following verse of the Thirumoolar's Thirumanthiram..
"Pettra nal Agamam – Kaaranam, Kamikam
uttra nal Veeram, uyar Siththam, Vaathulam
matrav Viyamalam ahum Kaaloaththiram
thuttra nat Suppiram sollu Mahutame.
Thirumanthiram – verse 63
Subsequently the Siva Agamams grew into twenty eight, and the
additional Agamams which made this number are as follows.
(1) Yosaka Agamam
(2) Sinthiya Agamam
(3) Asitha Agamam
(4) Theeptha Agamam
(5) Suukuma Agamam
(6) Anjuman Agamam
(7) Visaya Agamam
(8) Nisuvaasa Agaam
(9) Suwaayambuva Agamam
(10) Aakineya Agamam
(11) Rouvara Agamam
(12) Chandragnana Agamam
(13) Mukavimba Agamam
(14) Prokeetha Agamam
(15) Lalitha Agamam
(16) Santhana Agamam
(17) Sarvoththa Agamam
(19) Kirana Agamam
ORIGINAL AGAMAMS WERE IN TAMIL IN ADDITION TO IT BEING IN SANSKRIT
These original four Agamams were in Tamil in additon to them being in
Sanskrit which is gleaned from the references in the verses in Saint
Thirumoolar's Thirumanthiram which are as follows:
"Ariyamum Munth Thamilum udane solli
kaarikaiyarkku karunai seithaane"
Thirumamthiram - Verse 65
"Thamil sol Vada sol enum ivvirandum
unarththum avanai unaralumame"
Thirumanthiram - Verse 66
"Thangi mihamai vaiththaan Thamil Saththiram"
AGAMAMS THE SOURCE OF EARLY SAIVITE PHILOSOPHY OF TAMIL NADU
From all available evidences it could be proved beyond doubt that
Siva Agamas in Tamil were the original holy texts of Saivaism of
Tamil Nadu, long before the Vedic religion from north India having
Vedas in Sanskrit as its principal holy texts, gradually took a place
of pride along with Saivaism in Tamil Nadu in the subsequent periods.
The God Siva's forms such as Sivalingam, Siva with Gangai and
crest moon in his knots of hair with snake around his neck and a blue
kandam on his throat, and the trident in one hand, the Nadarajar,
Lingothbavar, Somaskandar, Thedchana-murthi, Arthanadiswarar etc etc
are only known to us from Agamams.
Only the Siva Agamams mention about Pancha Bootha Thalams, Virratta
Thalams etc, etc. Hence we could very correctly say that the Agamas
were the philosophy of the Saivite religion of South India
specifically of Tamil Nadu.
SAIVAISM AND VEDIC RELIGION
The Siva Agamas were also known as Thanthiram and Saiva Nool, while
the Vedas were also known as Manthiram, Aranam and as Veda Nool. The
religious scriptures - namely the Agamas & Vedas - of the two
religions the Saivaism & Vedism, were practised side by side in
Saivite Temples in the pre-medieval, medieval, and post-medieval
Tamil Nadu. This is confirmed by the following references.
" VedaNool, Saiva Nool, entru irande nookal,
veru uraikkum nool ivatrin virintha nookal
aathi Nool anaathi amalan tharum nool irandum
Arana Nool, Pothu Saivam arun sirappu noolaam."
"Aravu oli Agamangal, Arivar ari Thoththirangal,
viraviya Veda oli, vinnellaam vanthe ethirnthu issaippa"
7th Thirumurai - pathikam 100, verse - 8
"Vethamodu Saivaneri vilanga vantha kavuniyanaar"
"Saivam muthal vaitheekamum thalaiththonga"
ALL TEMPLE RITUALS ARE CONDUCTED AS PER SIVA AGAMAMS
From the early days through the medieval period upto today we are
aware from many sources that all Hindu Temple rituals and modes of
worship were, and are conducted as per codes stipulated in the
Agamas, even though only the Yagam, Omam & Velvis are done in
accordance with the Vedas with Sanskrit Vedic Mantras chanted.
ALL AGAMAMS AS IT EXISTS TODAY SHOULD BE TRANSLATED IN TO TAMIL AND
ENGLISH FROM SANSKRIT OR GRANTHAHA
Among the twenty eight Agamas whatever is available today in
Sanskrit, Grantha or in Tamil with various Priests of the Saivite
Temples in Tamil Nadu and elsewhere must be procured from these
Priests, and where required translated into Tamil & English by a team
of Scholars, printed and published and made freely available to every
one, who are interested in doing an indepth research study on them.
The Saiva Temple Priests too should co-operate with Scholars by
providing copies of these Agamams which are either in "Ola Leaf
Manuscript form" or already in the "Printed form" and are
now rare to find - for the future posterity of the Saivites throught
the World, rather than hiding and keeping them with themselves - for
It will be more welcome if the Temple Priests themselves could come
forward to put them into print and publish them, to the easy access
of all Scholars and others who will be interested in same.
It is only then everyone will come to know of the valuable contents
of the Agamas as it exists today, and appreciate and benefit from
them - as religious texts.
The Saivite Religious Dignitaries too should endevour to do intensive
study of the Agamas and bring forth and preach the salient features
of the Agamic religious philosopy which is the "Saiva
Siththantham" to all Hindus, as much as the Vedic philosophy is
preached to every one.
This will also help us to define the Saivaism religion correctly, and
make it useful to the Hindu community throughout the world,
especially to the Tamil Saivites.
- From: C.N.Muthukumaraswamy (@ dialpool-210-214-190-123.maa.sify.net)
on: Mon Jan 24 14:09:37 EST 2005
Thank you sri Hari. You have brought to light much of the references about Agamams in the Thirumurais. Now what is referred to as Agamams by the sivacharriyas are but the pooja paththathis only. We would look for the day, sivacharyas learn Tamil and Sanskrit and bring the 28 Agamas in Tamil. Dr. S.P.Sabharaththinam has written a small but informative book in tamil "Saiva AgamangkaL - An Introduction"
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