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From: villan007
on 10th May 2007 02:15 PM
[Full View]
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From: Srimannarayanan
on 10th May 2007 03:26 PM
[Full View]
Who is the best actor in 2005? Is it Amitab or someother?
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From: c4ramesh
on 10th May 2007 03:34 PM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
Srimannarayanan
Who is the best actor in 2005? Is it Amitab or someother?
seems like the they have stayed the proceedings. It was said to be Amitab, but one of the jury members is against it and has moved to the courts.
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From: Srimannarayanan
on 10th May 2007 03:42 PM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
c4ramesh
Originally Posted by
Srimannarayanan
Who is the best actor in 2005? Is it Amitab or someother?
seems like the they have stayed the proceedings. It was said to be Amitab, but one of the jury members is against it and has moved to the courts.
O.K
Any chances for Vikram?
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From: seran
on 10th May 2007 04:07 PM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
Srimannarayanan
Who is the best actor in 2005? Is it Amitab or someother?
2005 la avaru endha padathula herova nadicharu best actor award kodukaradhukku. If amithab is nominated for his performance in BLACK, then I feel Rajkiran is too gud in TT.
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From: kannannn
on 10th May 2007 05:24 PM
[Full View]
Apparently 'Black' was chosen by the Jury as the best movie at the behest of some DFF officials. The only hope for recognition at National level goes down the drain for South Indian movies. Namakku thaan irukkave irukke, Dinakaran awards..
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From: Pras
on 10th May 2007 05:53 PM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
Srimannarayanan
Originally Posted by
c4ramesh
Originally Posted by
Srimannarayanan
Who is the best actor in 2005? Is it Amitab or someother?
seems like the they have stayed the proceedings. It was said to be Amitab, but one of the jury members is against it and has moved to the courts.
O.K
Any chances for Vikram?
i'll be the firts happy guy
... but i don't think so
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From: nemesis786
on 10th May 2007 05:56 PM
[Full View]
Anniyan -- BETS MOVIE NATIONAL AWARD or VIKRAM _ BEST ACTOR FOR ANNIYAN?
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From: nemesis786
on 10th May 2007 05:57 PM
[Full View]
"NATINOAL" award oru pudhu awardo ?
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From: Pras
on 10th May 2007 06:02 PM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
nemesis786
Anniyan -- BETS MOVIE NATIONAL AWARD or VIKRAM _ BEST ACTOR FOR ANNIYAN?
it is a well known fact that vikram is the BEST actor :P
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From: selvakumar
on 10th May 2007 06:19 PM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
nemesis786
Anniyan -- BETS MOVIE NATIONAL AWARD or VIKRAM _ BEST ACTOR FOR ANNIYAN?
The first post of this thread says that Anniyan has been selected for "BEST SPECIAL EFFECTS"
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From: c4ramesh
on 10th May 2007 06:19 PM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
Pras
Originally Posted by
nemesis786
Anniyan -- BETS MOVIE NATIONAL AWARD or VIKRAM _ BEST ACTOR FOR ANNIYAN?
it is a well known fact that vikram is the BEST actor :P
Correction! ONE of the BEST ACTORS.
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From: nemesis786
on 10th May 2007 06:23 PM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
c4ramesh
Originally Posted by
Pras
Originally Posted by
nemesis786
Anniyan -- BETS MOVIE NATIONAL AWARD or VIKRAM _ BEST ACTOR FOR ANNIYAN?
it is a well known fact that vikram is the BEST actor :P
Correction! ONE of the BEST ACTORS.
If he deserves national award for ANNIYAN , AJITH by default shoulkd win national award for VARALARU
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From: nemesis786
on 10th May 2007 06:26 PM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
selvakumar
Originally Posted by
nemesis786
Anniyan -- BETS MOVIE NATIONAL AWARD or VIKRAM _ BEST ACTOR FOR ANNIYAN?
The first post of this thread says that Anniyan has been selected for "BEST SPECIAL EFFECTS"
Oh i see
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From: kb
on 10th May 2007 10:22 PM
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From: nemesis786
on 10th May 2007 10:24 PM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
kb
Mokkai varumnu ninachen paravala freea viduren coz apuram mods intervention irukum naan reply pana
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From: kb
on 10th May 2007 10:29 PM
[Full View]
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From: nemesis786
on 10th May 2007 10:33 PM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
kb
Kandukaadha
Una ipo evanavchu ketan?
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From: nemesis786
on 10th May 2007 10:37 PM
[Full View]
Who was incharge of special effects in ANNIYAN?
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From: thamizhvaanan
on 10th May 2007 10:43 PM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
nemesis786
If he deserves national award for ANNIYAN , AJITH by default shoulkd win national award for VARALARU
romba over
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From: nemesis786
on 10th May 2007 10:52 PM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
thamizhvaanan
Originally Posted by
nemesis786
If he deserves national award for ANNIYAN , AJITH by default shoulkd win national award for VARALARU
romba over
Anniyanku ellam best actor kudukuradhu remba remba over
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From: thamizhvaanan
on 10th May 2007 11:02 PM
[Full View]
if u are here to compare actors or their performance, if u ask me, vikram's performance is better compared to ajith's performance. May be coz of the scope that the role offered
idhula enna remba remba over irukku?
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From: ajithfederer
on 10th May 2007 11:03 PM
[Full View]
Ippo vaanguravan ellam ozhungana aaluga thaan vaanguranuga paarungaa.....
NA's are a big joke.......Shivaji dint get 1 which is
and kamal should have got atleast 2 0r 3 more, IMO
Originally Posted by
thamizhvaanan
Originally Posted by
nemesis786
If he deserves national award for ANNIYAN , AJITH by default shoulkd win national award for VARALARU
romba over
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From: thamizhvaanan
on 10th May 2007 11:05 PM
[Full View]
and saif ali kan got one
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From: joe
on 10th May 2007 11:05 PM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
ajithfederer
NA's are a big joke
I second this
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From: kb
on 10th May 2007 11:06 PM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
ajithfederer
Ippo vaanguravan ellam ozhungana aaluga thaan vaanguranuga paarungaa.....
inimetu naachi.. apidi nadakuratha thadukalaam-nu thaan
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From: joe
on 10th May 2007 11:08 PM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
kb
inimetu naachi..
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From: kb
on 10th May 2007 11:09 PM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
joe
Originally Posted by
kb
inimetu naachi..
enga oorla(SALEM) irrukira sila slang'la ithuvum onnu..
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From: ajithfederer
on 10th May 2007 11:10 PM
[Full View]
inimelavathu........enna tamizho....
Originally Posted by
joe
Originally Posted by
kb
inimetu naachi..
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From: c4ramesh
on 10th May 2007 11:12 PM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
kb
Originally Posted by
joe
Originally Posted by
kb
inimetu naachi..
enga oorla(SALEM) irrukira sila slang'la ithuvum onnu..
Kb seria solraru, enga oourla eppidithaan pesuvoum.
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From: joe
on 10th May 2007 11:14 PM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
kb
Originally Posted by
joe
Originally Posted by
kb
inimetu naachi..
enga oorla(SALEM) irrukira sila slang'la ithuvum onnu..
oh! appadiya
Naachi muthu maathiri yaaro orutharoda per-nnu ninachen
Inimetu Naachi vanthu national award-a yen thadukkanum-nnu
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From: kb
on 10th May 2007 11:14 PM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
c4ramesh
Kb seria solraru, enga oourla eppidithaan pesuvoum.
but there are very little number of words which we change..
apparametu is another
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From: ajithfederer
on 10th May 2007 11:15 PM
[Full View]
correct.....appo intha padathukku thevai illai .......adhuvum special effectskku.....mostly were suttufied from matrix
Originally Posted by
kb
Originally Posted by
ajithfederer
Ippo vaanguravan ellam ozhungana aaluga thaan vaanguranuga paarungaa.....
inimetu naachi.. apidi nadakuratha thadukalaam-nu thaan
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From: kb
on 10th May 2007 11:17 PM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
ajithfederer
correct.....appo intha padathukku thevai illai .......adhuvum special effectskku.....mostly were suttufied from matrix
it was inspired
matrixla koda they didnt use 365 degree which goes around vikram when he falls.. though it was not gud.. shankar atleast thought abt it
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From: c4ramesh
on 10th May 2007 11:18 PM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
ajithfederer
correct.....appo intha padathukku thevai illai .......adhuvum special effectskku.....mostly were suttufied from matrix
Originally Posted by
kb
Originally Posted by
ajithfederer
Ippo vaanguravan ellam ozhungana aaluga thaan vaanguranuga paarungaa.....
inimetu naachi.. apidi nadakuratha thadukalaam-nu thaan
Yeah, If they are going reject Amitab an award because Black is an inspired film, then they should apply the same rules here, because it seems to be inspired special effects.
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From: ajithfederer
on 10th May 2007 11:20 PM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
kb
Originally Posted by
ajithfederer
correct.....appo intha padathukku thevai illai .......adhuvum special effectskku.....mostly were suttufied from matrix
it was inspired
matrixla koda they didnt use 365 degree which goes around vikram when he falls.. though it was not gud.. shankar atleast thought abt it
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From: villan007
on 10th May 2007 11:22 PM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
kb
it was inspired
matrixla koda they didnt use 365 degree which goes around vikram when he falls..
though it was not gud.. shankar atleast thought abt it
appo award-u kidaikaathu
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From: c4ramesh
on 10th May 2007 11:24 PM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
villan007
Originally Posted by
kb
it was inspired
matrixla koda they didnt use 365 degree which goes around vikram when he falls..
though it was not gud.. shankar atleast thought abt it
appo award-u kidaikaathu
Well, the question arises as to how good are the Special Effects of its competitors?
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From: kb
on 10th May 2007 11:58 PM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
villan007
appo award-u kidaikaathu
vera entha padathuku kudukalaam
KRISSHH
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From: villan007
on 11th May 2007 12:12 AM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
kb
vera entha padathuku kudukalaam
KRISSHH
ennenna padam compete pannuthu
Athadu la kooda antha 360 deg. picturisation irunthichi..climax la
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From: mareen
on 11th May 2007 01:02 AM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
nemesis786
Originally Posted by
thamizhvaanan
Originally Posted by
nemesis786
If he deserves national award for ANNIYAN , AJITH by default shoulkd win national award for VARALARU
romba over
Anniyanku ellam best actor kudukuradhu remba remba over
its not over, i feel vikram deserves this award !!
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From: Srimannarayanan
on 11th May 2007 08:52 AM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
kb
Originally Posted by
villan007
appo award-u kidaikaathu
vera entha padathuku kudukalaam
KRISSHH
Krish released on mid of 2006.
Amitab's award has confirmed already,And Juries rejected "Black" for the best movie.
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From: Srimannarayanan
on 11th May 2007 08:54 AM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
mareen
Originally Posted by
nemesis786
Originally Posted by
thamizhvaanan
Originally Posted by
nemesis786
If he deserves national award for ANNIYAN , AJITH by default shoulkd win national award for VARALARU
romba over
Anniyanku ellam best actor kudukuradhu remba remba over
its not over,
i feel vikram deserves this award !!
But not for Anniyan indeed.
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From: selvakumar
on 11th May 2007 09:47 AM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
thamizhvaanan
if u are here to compare actors or their performance, if u ask me, vikram's performance is better compared to ajith's performance. May be coz of the
scope that the role offered
idhula enna remba remba over irukku?
I second what Nemesis said. IMO, Ajith's performace is way ahead compared to the other performance.
There is nothing to term that as "OVER"
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From: Sanjeevi
on 11th May 2007 11:33 AM
[Full View]
Hey, the awards for 2005 not 2006
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From: Villan
on 11th May 2007 09:12 PM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
Srimannarayanan
Originally Posted by
mareen
Originally Posted by
nemesis786
Originally Posted by
thamizhvaanan
Originally Posted by
nemesis786
If he deserves national award for ANNIYAN , AJITH by default shoulkd win national award for VARALARU
romba over
Anniyanku ellam best actor kudukuradhu remba remba over
its not over,
i feel vikram deserves this award !!
But not for Anniyan indeed.
Exactly...
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From: maithree
on 12th May 2007 12:46 AM
[Full View]
Vikram's Acting in Anniyan can be done by Ajith. It was just Special Effect stuff with a rusty voice, and long hair.
As Ambi he imitated Pooram Vishwanath a whole lot...
But Varlaaru Dancer's Role couldn't be done by Vikram.
I'd be forced to become a Homophobe if he did.
Seriously, Ajith in Varalaaru deserves the NA far more than Anniyan.
VIki deserves the NA for movies like Sethu, but not for Anniyan.
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From: nickraman
on 12th May 2007 08:07 AM
[Full View]
Both should get National Award. But RDB might be that.
Vikram for Anniyan, yes he deserves it more!
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From: kamalsurya
on 12th May 2007 11:16 PM
[Full View]
Vikram for Onion ah
Are they trying to make up for what he missed out for Sethu
Even if the NA panalist wanna make up they need not be this desparate
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From: maithree
on 13th May 2007 12:48 AM
[Full View]
Ejatly!
Maybe Kandhasamy might make up for this. :P
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From: Kollywoodfan
on 13th May 2007 03:26 AM
[Full View]
Ajith was very good in Varalaru. I agree with maithree, I think in terms of a more challenging role and all, Ajith should get the award for his spirited performance.
But I do think that Vikram might have a good chance too being that he already has a footing in the NA competition from Pithamagan. Although I agree Vikram cannot do the role that Ajith did in Varalaru, I don't think Ajith can really pull of what Vikram does in movies like Pithamagan and Sethu. Even in Anniyan, the suave Remo was something that can only be done by him IMO.
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From: kamalsurya
on 13th May 2007 08:10 AM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
Kollywoodfan
Ajith was very good in Varalaru. I agree with maithree, I think in terms of a more challenging role and all, Ajith should get the award for his spirited performance.
But I do think that Vikram might have a good chance too being that he already has a footing in the NA competition from Pithamagan. Although I agree Vikram cannot do the role that Ajith did in Varalaru, I don't think Ajith can really pull of what Vikram does in movies like Pithamagan and Sethu. Even in Anniyan, the suave Remo was something that can only be done by him IMO.
If Ajith cannot do a Suave role then who else can in Kollywood? Vijayakanth ah
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From: shobana_in
on 13th May 2007 08:45 AM
[Full View]
imho...vikram tried very hard in a waste script!
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From: kb
on 13th May 2007 09:24 AM
[Full View]
intha comedy paarunga..
Tamil Nadu’s most prestigious award Kalaimamani announced by Tamil Nadu State government on Thursday.
Many cine personalities have been selected for this award the list includes Vishal, Silambarasan Jayam Ravi, Jeeva, Vineeth, Venu Aravindh, Kanja Karupu, Trisha, Navya Nair, Deepa Venkat, Aarthy and CID Sakunthala. And lists also continue with lyricists Pa Vijay, Kabilan, Na Muthukumar and music composer Vidyasagar have been chosen for the honor. Besides playback singers Thippu, Madhu Balakrishnan and Bombay Jayashree, cinematographer Paneerselvam also seen in the award list.
Cine personalities expressed their gratitude towards Tamil Nadu Government for giving the pleasure to hold the prestigious title Kalaimamani.
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From: kamalsurya
on 13th May 2007 09:26 AM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
kb
intha comedy paarunga..
Tamil Nadu’s most prestigious award Kalaimamani announced by Tamil Nadu State government on Thursday.
Many cine personalities have been selected for this award the list includes Vishal, Silambarasan Jayam Ravi, Jeeva, Vineeth, Venu Aravindh, Kanja Karupu, Trisha, Navya Nair, Deepa Venkat, Aarthy and CID Sakunthala. And lists also continue with lyricists Pa Vijay, Kabilan, Na Muthukumar and music composer Vidyasagar have been chosen for the honor. Besides playback singers Thippu, Madhu Balakrishnan and Bombay Jayashree, cinematographer Paneerselvam also seen in the award list.
Cine personalities expressed their gratitude towards Tamil Nadu Government for giving the pleasure to hold the prestigious title Kalaimamani.
Kalaimamani has become like what Vivek said in Anniyan Kalai-
mama-mani
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From: Kollywoodfan
on 13th May 2007 08:20 PM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
kamalsurya
Originally Posted by
Kollywoodfan
Ajith was very good in Varalaru. I agree with maithree, I think in terms of a more challenging role and all, Ajith should get the award for his spirited performance.
But I do think that Vikram might have a good chance too being that he already has a footing in the NA competition from Pithamagan. Although I agree Vikram cannot do the role that Ajith did in Varalaru, I don't think Ajith can really pull of what Vikram does in movies like Pithamagan and Sethu. Even in Anniyan, the suave Remo was something that can only be done by him IMO.
If Ajith cannot do a Suave role then who else can in Kollywood? Vijayakanth ah
I'm not talking about looks. Ajith looked the role in movies like KK. But the stylish performance IMO (again you are free to disagree) can only be pulled off by Vikram or a younger Kamal. I don't think anyone else could have pulled off Remo without making the character seem downright ridiculous. Even with Vikram, some people felt he couldn't pull it off.
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From: thilak4life
on 13th May 2007 09:01 PM
[Full View]
KF,
Remo role was utterly ridiculous. Why?
Because it(or rather he) had an unbearably stupid Tanglish accent - And to embellish him with a stupid haircut with coolers on! - kodumai!
Moreover, my 6 year old cousin found out that it's the same guy who played ambi while this retard, Sadha, can't find!
If that wasn't enough, he would just snap with his fingers or makes some quick weird movements - the whole movie just testifies that he can't pull out a 'hippie' role!
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From: nemesis786
on 13th May 2007 09:15 PM
[Full View]
Kolly's theory --- Remo could have been done only by a younger kamal or Vikram !
I would say with dubbing or even original voice sambu.. sorry simbu would have done a better job! Hope you dont call MAJA as a breathtaking performance for which the team deserves oscars
As someone said vikram wasted his very good acting talents on a waste script! Vikram is a very good actor no doubt but Anniyan doesnt deserve national award anytime i say
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From: nemesis786
on 13th May 2007 09:18 PM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
Sanjeevi
Hey, the awards for 2005 not 2006
marandhu poiten
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From: ajithfederer
on 13th May 2007 09:24 PM
[Full View]
Ithayae naanga sonna ajith fans vayaterichalla pesuraangannu solluvanga :P
Originally Posted by
thilak4life
KF,
Remo role was utterly ridiculous. Why?
Because it(or rather he) had an unbearably stupid Tanglish accent - And to embellish him with a stupid haircut with coolers on! - kodumai!
Moreover, my 6 year old cousin found out that it's the same guy who played ambi while this retard, Sadha, can't find!
If that wasn't enough, he would just snap with his fingers or makes some quick weird movements - the whole movie just testifies that he can't pull out a 'hippie' role!
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From: Villan
on 13th May 2007 09:29 PM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
nemesis786
Originally Posted by
Sanjeevi
Hey, the awards for 2005 not 2006
marandhu poiten
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From: nemesis786
on 13th May 2007 09:32 PM
[Full View]
FIRST OF ALL FOR WHICH CATEGORY ANNIYAN HAS BEEN NOMINATED FOR NATIONALS???
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From: thilak4life
on 13th May 2007 09:34 PM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
ajithfederer
Ithayae naanga sonna ajith fans vayaterichalla pesuraangannu solluvanga :P
Originally Posted by
thilak4life
KF,
Remo role was utterly ridiculous. Why?
Because it(or rather he) had an unbearably stupid Tanglish accent - And to embellish him with a stupid haircut with coolers on! - kodumai!
Moreover, my 6 year old cousin found out that it's the same guy who played ambi while this retard, Sadha, can't find!
If that wasn't enough, he would just snap with his fingers or makes some quick weird movements - the whole movie just testifies that he can't pull out a 'hippie' role!
Haha.
Ippo yenga ponnalum, neenga some 'X' fan (inga hub-la either KH or Ajith) - So vaayya moodunga-nu solra pallakkam-a pochu !!!
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From: Kollywoodfan
on 13th May 2007 09:56 PM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
nemesis786
Kolly's theory --- Remo could have been done only by a younger kamal or Vikram !
I would say with dubbing or even original voice sambu.. sorry simbu would have done a better job! Hope you dont call MAJA as a breathtaking performance for which the team deserves oscars
As someone said vikram wasted his very good acting talents on a waste script! Vikram is a very good actor no doubt but Anniyan doesnt deserve national award anytime i say
I already said that Ajith's role is more worthy of a National Award if it comes up, but I don't think that Anniyan or Vikram's performance in it was as "wasteful" as people say. That's all.
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From: ajithfederer
on 13th May 2007 10:05 PM
[Full View]
Seriously
People here they wont even try to understand/analyse what we are saying. They will be ready to brand the comment as a biased one from an ajith/kamal fan most of the times.
Not to forget the Warnings that arrives to u very Immediately in pm's from Mods...
Vaazgha jananayagam......Varuga marudanayagam
Originally Posted by
thilak4life
Originally Posted by
ajithfederer
Ithayae naanga sonna ajith fans vayaterichalla pesuraangannu solluvanga :P
Originally Posted by
thilak4life
KF,
Remo role was utterly ridiculous. Why?
Because it(or rather he) had an unbearably stupid Tanglish accent - And to embellish him with a stupid haircut with coolers on! - kodumai!
Moreover, my 6 year old cousin found out that it's the same guy who played ambi while this retard, Sadha, can't find!
If that wasn't enough, he would just snap with his fingers or makes some quick weird movements - the whole movie just testifies that he can't pull out a 'hippie' role!
Haha.
Ippo yenga ponnalum, neenga some 'X' fan (inga hub-la either KH or Ajith) - So vaayya moodunga-nu solra pallakkam-a pochu !!!
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From: crajkumar_be
on 14th May 2007 10:53 AM
[Full View]
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From: ajaybaskar
on 14th May 2007 11:01 AM
[Full View]
Anniyan does not deserve a national award.
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From: shobana_in
on 14th May 2007 01:28 PM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
ajaybaskar
Anniyan does not deserve a national award.
not even state award for that idiotic script
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From: nemesis786
on 14th May 2007 01:30 PM
[Full View]
FIRST OF ALL FOR WHICH CATEGORY ANNIYAN HAS BEEN NOMINATED FOR NATIONALS???
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From: shobana_in
on 14th May 2007 01:33 PM
[Full View]
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From: nemesis786
on 14th May 2007 01:35 PM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
shobana_in
for special effects
In 2005 i think it deserves to be atleast nominated especially for that karate people fight :P
2005la vera nalla special effects ulla south indian movie vera edhavdhu iruka?
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From: rockydeva
on 14th May 2007 03:09 PM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
shobana_in
Originally Posted by
ajaybaskar
Anniyan does not deserve a national award.
not even state award for that idiotic script
but i think its ON for SPECIAL EFFECTS
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From: maithree
on 14th May 2007 08:53 PM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
shobana_in
for special effects
Wel..in that case I guess Anniyan deserves it for the fight scene, Vikram doesn't really deserve any recognition from this award though
The fight scene was
even though it was copied from "The Matrix: Reloaded"
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From: raaja_rasigan
on 15th May 2007 07:51 PM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
nemesis786
Originally Posted by
shobana_in
for special effects
In 2005 i think it deserves to be atleast nominated especially for
that karate people fight :P
2005la vera nalla special effects ulla south indian movie vera edhavdhu iruka?
konjam suyama sindhikkiravangalukku award kudutha... innum pudhusa sindhippaanga......
copy adikkiravanukku kudutha.... mathavan ellam copy adikkathaan povaan
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From: Roshan
on 15th May 2007 08:17 PM
[Full View]
Originally Posted by
thilak4life
Moreover, my 6 year old cousin found out that it's the same guy who played ambi while this retard, Sadha, can't find!
Sadha is anyway Saadha so cannot expect anything more than that