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Interview with Nawabzadaa Nabiullah Khan
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This interview was published in February 1999 issue of "Jamhooria Islamia"
a monthly Baluchi magazine published from Panj-gar
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999
Interview with Nawabzadaa Nabiullah Khan
Interviewed by Jalil Amir
Q: Please tell us about your stay with Qazi Hussain Ahmed
A: Qazi has two bungalows in Peshawar. We spent lot of time in both the houses. The first house is where his family lived and the second house was his office and rest house. But he used to meet all his friends and relatives and political workers only in his family house. He made sure at least for 3 days in a week, Qazi and his close friends used to spend time in his rest house. Unlike his family house, the rest house had all the amenities that one can think of. It had 36-inch television. 2 satellite dishes to receive all kinds of telecasts from all over the world. He had made extensive notes on all the telecasts. We used to discuss all the things under the sun in his rest house.
I had a habit of drinking small amounts of wine. Qazi never drank or smoked. Qazi knew about my weakness for wine. He advised me not to drink and asked me to follow the steps of Prophet Mohammad (PBUH). Though I had a habit of drinking only in very small amounts of fine wine just before dinner, on Qazi's insistence, I left that habit. When I was studying in engineering college, I had started the habit of smoking too. I left that habit after Qazi's advice on smoking.
I stayed with Qazi for almost 6 years in Peshawar. I did not agree to some of the strategies used by JI during the after Zia years. Qazi is a very practical man while I was more of an idealist at that time. I was insisting that the JI should not rely on ballot as the only route to power. Qazi was insisting that ballot is the only way for JI to come to power in Pakistan. This introduced a sense of alienation between Qazi and me. Hence when I went to Baluchistan to meet my parents, I stayed back rather than going back to Peshawar. Even though almost weekly once we talk over phone, Qazi never called me back to stay with him and I found my work as the Jamaat teacher in Quetta where I stay now with my parents and family.
Yet, my years with Qazi in Peshawar and around the world with him were the most satisfying years in my life intellectually.
Q: What are Qazi's views on Islam and Prophet Mohammad (PBUH)
A: Qazi was a great admirer and student of Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) . He modeled his whole thoughts and life on the life and teachings of Mohammad (PBUH). I was astounded many times by Qazi when he does a small thing, he will immediately compare that incident with an incident in Al-Hadith and explain that he did what Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) did 10 centuries ago. I had never seen a person who had modeled his whole life on sayings and teachings of Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) like Qazi.
Q: The women issue is very controversial nowadays. Taliban and some fundamentalist organizations restrict the freedom of women. While some progressive Muslim intellectuals are insisting that the women are equal to men in all spheres. What are Qazi's views on women?
A: As I said earlier, the Prophet Mohammad (PBUH)'s views on women are the exact views of Qazi. Equality of men and women is stupidity. What men can do, women cannot do and what women can do, men cannot do. Women are weak physically and mentally compared to men. For this we do not need any proof other than to just look at men and women. Men have to take care of women all the time. If some women do not have any male relatives, then they have to find a man and marry him so that he will take care of her. Women should not have life outside the family. Education can be provided to them but not to compete with men in public. Neither they can fight in war nor they can be of use in peacetime politics. Qazi had said once that JI comes to power in Pakistan, he will abolish the voting rights of women and minorities. Only the Muslim men can participate in voting or standing for elections. When I asked the proof from Hadiths, he had quoted many Hadiths in support of that. I asked him why is that it is never talked openly in the public by Jamaat. Qazi had said that the hints are all over the place. But JI did not make it a big issue since the women who currently have the voting may vote against JI in the elections if such a thing is said openly. For this I was against. in my opinion, since all the main leaders of Jamaat believes that women will not have voting rights after they come to power, they should openly say that. If you do not say now and then you remove the voting rights later when you come to power, that is going to build a resentment among the people. But Qazi was firmly of the opinion that JI should not say that now.
Q:That brings us to the question of minorities. Will they have to pay Jizya tax?
A:Yes. They have to pay the tax. As explained by Qazi, the idea of Jizya is not protection money. But it is a monetary force on the non-Muslim to convert to Islam. Once the Jamaat comes to power, the minorities will be induced (forced) to become Muslims either by monetary or psychological factors. JI is already equating the India with Hindus so that the Hindus of Pakistan will be forced to become Muslims. This was very successful strategy during the Babri Masjid riots. JI actively involved in destroying the Hindu temples in Punjab and Sindh. We ordered the destruction of the Hindu family property too. But our main aim was to destroy the Hindu temples. We wrote the JI pamphlets that destroying each pagan temple make a Muslim move closer to heaven of Allah. We used the Hadiths in all the pamphlets. Babar destroyed the Ram temple in Ayodhya. Because he was a true believer. The same way every Muslim should take upon himself to destroy the Hindu temples in Pakistan. Our idea was to encourage the Muslims of India also to destroy the Hindu temples in India. But this was not met with much success since the Hindu police in India started attacking the Muslims who were doing the Allah's duty.
Q: What kind of government that JI envisages for Pakistan?
A: It will be the Sharia govt. Sharia will be made our constitution so that the eminent Muslim scholars who had completed the schooling in Madrassas will be appointed as the Judges in every court. Qazi wanted to make the presidium on the same model as the Khalifa. Presently our ideas is that the entire top leadership of JI as well as all three military Generals will be part of the presidium for which the Qazi will be the Kalifa. We are keenly watching the progress of Taliban and learning from it. We are impressed with the Taliban on the women issue, minorities issue and law and order issue. Mullah Omar is a great friend of Qazi. Omar had visited his house many times. In the tentative talks, we had decided to form union of Pakistan and Afghanistan once the right conditions are set in Pakistan (i.e. the JI government in Pakistan). Our motto is Constant Jihad. The idea is to keep Pakistan in a constant state of Jihad all the time. Qazi's vision is that Pakistan will be center of the new Islamic Empire that stretches from Burma to Afghanistan and from Srilanka to Tajikistan including Kashmir. Towards that end, Jamaat will use all tactics from terrorism in the kafir-controlled areas to negotiations in the Muslim controlled areas. Already the Jamaat leaders of Bangladesh and Jamaat leaders of India had accepted the primacy of Pakistani leadership in this regard.
Q: Do they come to Pakistan?
A: Yes. We had made arrangements once in Peshawar and another time in Multan during the Zia time. But the understanding remains even now.
Q: What about Srilanka and Burma?
A: Both are Buddhist nations. For that matter even Baluchistan and Afghanistan were Buddhist once while Sindh and Punjab were Hindu earlier. Buddhists are generally weaker in matters of faith. Hence we hope they will become Muslim with a little pressure. But that will happen only after Jamaat conquers first Pakistan and then India.
Q: What are the plans for India? It looks like entire India policy of Jamaat revolves around Kashmir.
A: Yes that is true. But that is for a very good reason. See Kashmir is like a keystone that sits on a top of the arch. It is true that the arch holds the entire weight of the keystone. But if you remove the keystone, then the whole arch falls down. That is why it is called keystone. Kashmir is the keystone for India. Once you remove that, then India can no longer be secular and it will not be a united country either. like the stones of the arch, all the bricks will fall down. Qazi impressed this idea upon Zia. Hence Zia started the Operation Topac. Operation Topac's idea is not to get Kashmir for Pakistan as thought of by Indian analysts. Operation Topac is much more. The ultimate aim of Operation Topac is to make India a million pieces so that it is easy for Pakistan to swallow India once piece at a time. That is why Pakistan was encouraging the militancy movements all over India. Once Kashmir is taken out, these militancy movements will break India by asking the similar freedom for Nagaland, Kerala, Mizoram, Meghalaya, Manipur, Assam, Jharkand, Tamil Nadu, West Bengal and Khalistan. But Benazir destroyed our whole plan by giving away the details of the operation Topac to Indian govt. led by Rajiv Gandhi. That was a big set back for our vision. But yet we are moving ahead.
Q: I heard that she gave away only details about Khalistan movement.
A: That is true. In my opinion, that is why I think the damage is limited. India thinks and deals with separatist movements in different parts of India as if they are genuine movements even now. In that way, I say, the damage is limited.
Q: Do you think if the states if India became independent countries, no such similar movement will start in Pakistan itself?
A: No. Jiye Sindh movement and small separatist movements in Baluchistan and Peshawar are contained. We are not going to deal with the separatism in Pakistan as India treats the separatists. It will be Taliban style. Actually we do not foresee any position for opposition in JI ruled Pakistan. Hence the BNP and Pakhtoonkwa leaders will be made irrelevant.
Q: Coming back to the same point, If India to become many countries how do you deal with the individual Hindu states. They may even become big enemies of Pakistan. Or they may again regroup to challenge Pakistan.
A: Qazi and other people had already discussed this possibility. In our opinion, such a thing is not possible since the language and cultural differences between states in India are enormous. There is no language like Urdu to bind all Indians. English and not Hindi that is common language between all the states of India. Hence we have planned to start riots in each state against the neighborhood state people so that the states will always be at the state of war. For example there are lot of Kannadigas in TamilNadu and Telugu in Madras. We will start the anti -telugu riots in Madras, which will keep the Andhrapradesh and Tamil Nadu fighting. If we keep a bomb in Telugu Cinema Theater in Madras and keep a bomb in Tamil Movie Theater in Andhra, the war between Tamilnadu and Andhra will run for eternity. The similar things can be done in Assam cultural center in Bengal and Hindi prachar sabha in Orissa. Given the differences between the nationalities in India, the options for Pakistan are endless. Qazi's vision is to make entire India a 100% Muslim Nation. A United India, where Hindus are majority is an impediment to that. Like Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) made Muslims out of pagans of Arabia, Qazi also wants to make Muslims out of the pagans of India.
Q: This is a great vision since this was not even possible for the Muslim dynasties and Moguls who ruled India for the last 700 years.
A: True. That is because they had never really established the Muslim Empire. Though the Kings were Muslims they had entertained the Hindus in positions of power. When you make an unequivocal statement that only Muslims are voters and declare that India is Islamic republic, then automatically the people will become Muslims. Little bit of terror had to be applied to the heart of Hindus and Christians. I will give you a best example. The portions now constitute Pakistan had 25% Hindu population before Independence. After independence lot of Hindus migrated to India. Yet after the migration, Pakistani Hindu population was 15%. Do you know what is the percentage now? It is less than 1%. How was this made possible? How did the Hindus converted to Islam in a short span of 20 years whereas for 700 years they had never converted to Islam? That is purely because of the terror of the partition. That terror forced the Hindus who remained in Pakistan to become Muslims. Pure and simple. JI used similar techniques in Punjab and Sindh each time a riot breaks out in India, we had used that pretext to strike terror among the Hindus, Christians and Ahmaddiahs. The similar terror will be at the heart of the every non-Muslim both Hindu as well as Christian in coming years in entire India. Qazi is a analytical genius who knows every strategy that is used by Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) will be and should be used in India to achieve the total submission to Allah.
Q: Do you envision a possibility that when the Kashmir becomes part of Pakistan, there could be large-scale riots in India against Indian Muslims? Hence unwittingly Kashmir could lead to more deaths of Indian Muslims and damage Islamic Ummah.
A: Yes that is a possibility. But our ideology is based on Quran and Hadiths. Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) in numerous Hadiths and Allah in Quran had said that any Muslim who associates with a polytheist in a polytheist. Muslims cannot be friendly with a non-Muslim. This includes the Christians, Jews and Hindus. Also Mohammad (PBUH) says that even if the Muslim ruler is not good, the Muslims stay with the ruler than to go out to a non-Muslim country. Hadiths and Quran are very explicit regarding this. All the Muslims who did not migrate to Pakistan during Partition are in essence Hindus. They may think that they are Muslims. But not before Allah. They are as self-deluded as the Ahmaddiahs who think they are Muslims when everyone knows that they are not Muslims. Hence the Muslims of India who had decided to stay in India during partition are not Muslims and their progeny are not Muslim (since they did not migrate to Muslim lands). Another thing that I noticed in my journeys in India is that the Hindu farmers generally offer their entire harvest to their gods at the end of their harvesting season. This makes the entire crop as haram for Muslims. Yet these so called Muslims of India are forced to eat this food which was already offered to some other God other than Allah thallah. This is explicitly forbidden in Quran. And this is one of the serious problems of living in non-Muslim countries. Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) knew such things; that is why he ordered Muslims not to live in non-Muslim areas. Yet knowingly these so called Muslims live in India. Again all the Muslims who migrate to other countries and US are non-Muslims. Only the Muslims who intend to come back are Muslims not the ones who decide to stay in such countries.
Hence we do not care if such Indian Muslims die in the riots. But due to strategy reasons we do have excellent relations with these Muslims. All the Muslims who work for Pakistan and for glory of Ummah are real Muslims. They are our front line troops in non-Muslim countries. Hence we have to distribute the arms and ammunitions to these real Muslims in case of riots come to their door.
Whereas the Kashmiri Muslims are pure Muslims who are toiling under the yoke of Hindu rule. They are victimized by the international conspiracy to keep them under the Hindu rule. That issue is part of the incomplete partition. Whereas the Indian Muslims have accepted partition and stayed on in India knowingly.
Q: Yet the popular uprising in Kashmir was missing in 1965 as well as in 1948.
A: That is true. That may be because of the clout of Sheik Abdullah of Kashmir during 1948 war. Actually the Muslim population in Jammu Kashmir was only marginally higher than Hindus. Muslims constituted 58% while the non-Muslims constituted the 42%. Hence the operation Topac aimed at eliminating the Kashmiri Pandits from the valley. We thought all of them will go to India. Instead many went to Jammu and only very little went to India. Hence we had to ask Harkatul to start terrorising the Hindus in Jammu. We also expected large scale war against Muslims in Jammu as well as in all the parts of India because of the killings. Indian govt suppressed these information. Another thing that was not done is the complete removal of Buddhists and Hindus from Jammu and Kashmir. We could do only in Valley and not in jammu and Ladakh. Hence the population of Muslims in Jammu and Kashmir is around 65% only according to Harkatul.
Q: Tell us about your stay in Saudi Arabia.
A: We embarked on a Umra as team of JI leaders. of course, Zia had arranged every convenience for us. We were accommodated in a Sheik's house. He is one of the richest Builders in Saudi Arabia. He owns few gold shops in Qatar too. Sheik was a personal friend of Zia Ul Haq. During the time of Zia, we were not politically active. Since Zia did whatever Qazi wanted, there was no need for political power either. Hence we had lot of time. That is the main reason why we stayed 3 full months in Sheik's palace. This sheik comes from a Bedouin family of southwestern Arabia. He had the habit of drinking camel urine and camel milk early in the morning. I asked him why does he do that? He replied that it is the family tradition as well as Islamic practice that is supported by Prophet Mohammad (PBUH). I was astounded. But Qazi explained to me that it is true. He told me three or four Hadiths in which the camel urine and camel milk drinking is suggested. So Qazi wanted to drink the camel urine and camel milk along with the Sheik. Since I could not bring up myself to drink the camel urine, I drank only fresh camel milk, which was thick and frothy. But Qazi drank the camel urine and camel milk the same amount and same time as the sheik. Qazi astounded me in this incident. I am amazed by the fact that Qazi was ready to go any length to mould his life in the teachings of the prophet.
Q: Does he continue to do that even today?
A: No. He bought a camel after coming to Pakistan. Three years later he had kidney stones problem. As per the doctor's advice he had to stop drinking the urine while he continued the drinking camel milk. Doctor advised him to stop drinking the milk as well since the camel milk is rich in calcium compared to the cow milk. I think he stopped drinking any milk or milk products. But he had said that once JI comes to power in Pakistan, he will popularize the camel milk and camel urine drinking in Pakistan. But I doubt he can do that. In my opinion, only camel milk can be popularized.
Q: That is quite news to me. How was your stay in Arabia otherwise?
A: First I have to tell you that Saudi Arabia, as a country name, is wrong. It is Just Arabia. Only that Saudi dynasty rules over some parts of Arabia. You cannot put your name before a holyland as if you own that land. For Pakistan if Nawaz rules it, will it become Sheriff Pakistan and tomorrow Bhutto rules it and will it become Bhutto Pakistan?
Anyway, one thing we noticed is that the Arabians own slaves. Though Allah says that the slaves should be treated in a nice manner, he did not advocate the abolition of slavery. If slavery is bad as considered in today's world, Allah certainly would have said that the slavery is wrong. Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) also said that the slaves should be treated in a good manner and the slaves should be released often. But if there is no slavery how can anyone release slaves? Hence the reintroduction of slavery in Pakistan is one of the future plans of Jamaat. All the captured Hindu Indians and Srilankans will be made slaves to work for Pakistani Muslims. Every God abiding Pakistani Muslim will get slaves once we conquer India. All the slaves who embrace Islam will be set free. Slavery is Islamic. Jamaat is the only political party, which does not voice any opposition to the slavery of Harees (defeated) in Pakistan.
We went around all over Arabia. We were surprised to know that there are some Hindus in Yemen. These ancient Yemeni Hindus are not Indians. In my opinion, these Hindus are traders from India in the ancient times. I was also surprised to know that they have a Shiva temple in Yemen. Qazi was very unhappy over this. When he talked to Yemen leaders, he broached this subject. But the Yemeni leaders refused Qazi's suggestion of forced conversion of these people to Islam. I don't know why they refuse. I think it may be due to the large population of Hindus from India who work in Yemen and Arabia. He disliked the current leadership of Arabia for this reason. In his opinion, Arabia should not allow any non-Muslim into holy lands of Arabia. Arabia should be 100% pure. Large number of Hindus in Arabia is corrupting the Arabians. Though they live as contractors, they have the potential of corrupting the minds of the Arabians. One such thing is the presence of Arabians in Qatar Hindu temple. First the king allowed the Hindus to build a temple and church in the holy lands there by polluting the Holy Land. Second is that even a member of the Royal family visit that temple to inaugurate that temple. To the horror of Qazi he had learnt that one of the powerful member of Qatar royal family is a devotee of a god called Aayanppan. This news resolved Qazi to fight the force of the devil thousand fold.
Q: Such things happen in Pakistan today. I mean a friend of mine goes to a Hindu temple. Another friend goes to church meetings.
A: Yes. One of Qazi's relatives wanted to become a Hindu. He did not have a child for many years and it seems he had prayed to a Hindu God and got the child. Hence he felt thankful to that god and wanted to become a Hindu. Qazi got to know of this and called him and threatened him dire consequences. That relative did not become a Hindu. But that incident made Qazi read more about apostasy. Quran and Hadith clearly say the punishment for abandonment of Islam is death. Since Sharia is not the law in Pakistan, and the current Pakistani constitution grants right to change the religion, it is legally correct to declare oneself as Hindu or Christian. But once JI takes over the government, it will make Sharia as the constitution. Then Pakistan also legally execute any person who leaves Islam and joins Ahmaddiah, Christianity or Hinduism the same way Iran and Taliban treats its apostates. He also opined that the presence of the Hindu temples in Pakistan is the root cause of the problem and hence we want to destroy all the Hindu temples and Churches in Pakistan.
Q: This brings us into another area. Right now Internet is becoming widespread. Even Saudi Arabia is connected with outside world. Destroying the temples may be good but how we can insulate the Pakistani and Muslim people against the corrupting knowledge totally?
A: JI had taken a principled stand on the matter of science and religion. Religion is far superior to science. Whatever man needs to know is in Quran and Hadiths. Knowing more will create problems like the Atom bomb and Television. Quran and Hadiths are explicit in denouncing pictures. Yet the lure of Satan in the form of photography and television is eating our lives. Music previously was confined only to the vocal singing. Now science and technology made the music widespread at a cheaper price. These are the lures of Satan. We have to on guard against these harami things.
Hence more science and technology is bad for the civilization. I had completed civil engineering. Hence I am privy to scientific knowledge. I can tell you how corrupting that is. It even makes you question the glorious Quran. There are many Hadiths, which say that the earth is flat. But any science will tell you the earth is a sphere. But you can use the same science like relativity theory to prove that the earth is flat. It is the same case with evolution. But the point being that the doubt is sown in the minds of the people on the validity of Quran as the word of God. More and more we work hard in proving the Quran's scientific correctness, more and more people will get apprehensive of the truth of Quran. This is an abomination. This is why when we talk of education, we talk of religious education and not scientific education.
It is true that science grew after Prophet's revolution in Arabia. That was start of science. Now each and every science is filled with anti-god stuff. If you want to become a doctor, you have to read evolution. If you have to read any engineering you have to believe in the billions of years old universe theory which effectively says that the human beings came to world only in just one or two million years back.
Q: But we still need the arms and knowledge of western world, which believes in science. And again you had referred to television as evil. If we abolish photography how can we have passports or identification cards?
A: Yes. That is strategic. With the help of Allah, we will be given oil for them to run their cars and we will have arms in that place. We will use their arms to destroy them in the course of time. As for as photos are concerned, they will be banned as it is done in Afghanistan. If there is no need for people to go out of Pakistan where is the need for the passports? For those who have to travel to other countries like the leaders of the revolution, they only will be given the passport with photos. For that, we will allow limited photography licensed only to govt. And the biggest corruption in today's Pakistan is Indian satellite TV and Indian cinemas and Indian songs. We have to abolish these too.
Q: Currently we have lot of opposition from Mohajirs regarding reservations. What kind of reservation policy that JI will have in Pakistan?
A: We approach that problem as the problem of language. Urdu speaking Muslims and Sindhi speaking Muslims are fighting now. We plan to abolish all the regional languages like Pashto, Sindhi, Baluchi, Urdu, Punjabi and Brahvi. We want all the people of Pakistan to speak Arabic which is our divine language. This will make everyone equal before everyone else and there would not be any need for language or region based reservations. We also hope that this will make the Quran and Hadiths easier to understand and will make the people follow Quran and Hadiths to the letter.
Q: There could be language riots. One such language riot resulted in Bangladesh.
A: Bangladesh was not a result of language riot. The very idea that they are Muslims will bring the Bangladeshis to Arabic. We already fund heavily on the Arabic language courses all over India, Bangladesh and Pakistan. From Morocco to Iraq speaks in Arabic, I don't see any reason why from Morocco to Burma we will not bring Arabic to the people. Even Bangladesh will start speaking in Arabic. That time there won't be any Bangladesh where the country name itself has the name of the language. Yes. Right now our aim is just for reunification without touching on the language issue of Bengali. JI of Bangladesh is working towards this aim.
Q: The secular journalists of Pakistan oppose JI. For example the Dawn and News are very critical of JI. How do you see their role in future?
A: Ardheshir cowasjee is able to work only because of the present constitution of Pakistan. When Sharia becomes constitution, he cannot even approach the court, as he is a kafir. We see secular journalists as our main enemy in the current struggle to reach the power. These secular journalists are digging our statements we made during the
pre-independence days and trying to beat us. Of course we opposed the creation of Pakistan during the British times. But that was a different Jamaat. Our history starts with independence. Secular journalists are not Muslims even though some of them are carrying Muslim names. Let them come to us and let us ask questions on Quran and Hadiths. We will prove each and every thing we say is from Quran and Hadiths. Let them prove what we say are wrong from the Quranic angle. Then we will accept them. But they cannot. They can not match us in any debate concerning the Quran and Hadiths. We can comprehensively prove that they are indeed non-Muslims. They are like Quadianis who say that the Muslim need not take upon Jihad as an obligation. That is pure nonsense.
Q: What is your plan in Quetta?
A: I have family in Panj-gur. I have my work in Quetta. Hence I travel all the time. Though I am a close friend of Qazi, and though he asked me to take up organizational work, I refused that since I am not really good in organizational work. There are very good people who are very good in organizational work in Quetta. I am being contented with the closeness of Qazi and being an ideologue of JI. Sometimes I speak in the Jamaat meetings. Otherwise my time is spent in reading and sending notes to Qazi.
Q:Thanks for your time. A: May Allah's blessings be with you.
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