Topic started by Ravi Kiran (@ 202.54.26.125) on Mon May 8 06:40:16 .
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Neraval is considered one of the most difficult
aspects of carnatic music.
any student will vouch for this fact.
musuri and kvn are considered exponents of nereval
singing.
what i am interested in knowing is wheter neravals
should be sung only based upon the musical
content or whether one must also look at the meaning.
this query does not arise in case of some immortal
neravals like "...mamatha bandhanayutha nara
sthuti sukhamA.." or "...veda shastra tatvArthamulu delisi.."
but in some cases, it seems as though neraval is
being sung at the cost of meaning.
please comment on this.

Responses:

• From: suhas (@ 203.197.56.188) on: Mon May 8 18:53:43 EDT 2000
  
  
  I read somewhere that while singing pallavi (in RTP ) and neraval one can actualy do so at the cost of lyrics.
  
  
• From: Nadopasaka (@ aeppp4.buffnet.net) on: Tue May 9 21:37:23 EDT 2000
  
  Hi, RaviKiran, maybe you can comment, What is the origin of the word 'neraval' ? It may be derived from an old Tamil word but I am not sure. Did this also start with AriyakudiRI's modern kutchery format ? Hmm. probably not. Is there an intent to explore and perhaps improve on the original kriti phrases ? Statistically do MD's krities have less neraval treatment than others ?How is it related to the talam of the kriti ? Since it comes after the standard rendition, when the composers ideas have most likely materialised, the neraval may offer the artist the opportunity to launch him-herself further. It is interesting that the launching point can be anywhere from the kriti (also different swara starting point ) , depending on the artistes particular degree of comfort that day. Is it true that ragas which have several krities, e.g. Kalyani, sankarabharanam are generally where this is used ? Well thats my questions neraval for now. Thanks for comments.
  
  
• From: Ravi Kiran (@ 202.54.26.125) on: Wed May 10 00:52:29 EDT 2000
  
  nado,
  thanks for your comments.
  well, what am i actually interested in is the rasika's
  viewpoint.
  IMHO, the basic purpose of neraval is the elaboration of
  a line or a selection of lines so as to bring out
  the underlying musical and lyrical beauty in it.
  actually, lyrical beauty must take precedence here.
  because, sans the lyrics, the neraval would lack
  punch and bhaava.
  it is the innate emotional content of the lyrics
  that makes neraval singing an area of expertise.
  anybody who has heard kvn elaborate "mamatha bandhanayutha ..."
  would vouch for this.
  but, the attitude in certain musicians seems to be
  very callous in this aspect.
  their renditions, however scholarly, lacks real
  emotion.
  anyway, apart from the bhakthi/bhaavam, neravals
  also offer a vent to the artiste's manodharma.
  however, the laya gnyAnam of the artiste finds
  more room in swara singing - and hence, tala
  manipulations do not, i think, come in to play in neravals.
  meanwhile, i will try to find out the origin of
  neraval singing and get back to you.
  any body has any idea about this?
  
  
• From: S (@ wwwgate32.motorola.com) on: Fri May 12 00:45:20 EDT 2000
  
  >>>What is the origin of the word 'neraval'<<<
  My guess would be that neraval / niraval ( as written in tamil ) might have come from the tamil verb 'niravu' meaning to spread, fill up etc.
  >>>Did this also start with AriyakudiRI's modern kutchery format ? Hmm. probably not.<<<
  U r right - it definitely did not start with ARI
  
  Musiri SI's name has already been mentioned by Ravi - he specialized in keezhkaala neraval - sadly neglected by most. Neraval singing for pallavis follow stricter rules than for kritis in that the padagarbham ( arudi in tamil ) should not be disturbed/displaced. As Ravi says, there should be a balance of bhava and technique. Even on the music front, it is sad that most people do not weave interesting and aesthetic patterns into neraval and just 'run up and down' the scale in the mel-kalam, and settle down to swara singing.
  
  
• From: Ashok Subramaniam (@ 1cust73.tnt1.gilroy.ca.da.uu.net) on: Sun May 21 19:37:58 EDT 2000
  
  IMHO, niralval should be done with appropriate "pankeedu" of words taken for niraval to embellish the 'arthabhusti' as well as the 'bhavaa'. It is not to expose how well a vocal artist can use "vuvuvu" or "eee"(read as short vowels) "or aaa" as fillers between the words. For the same reasons that 'thanam" singing does not make sense for vocal music, "neraval" singing does not make sense (at least to me!) for instrumental solos, except while accompanying a vocal artist! I wonder if Sangeetha trinity or for that matter any sahithya kartha would approve of their beautiful lyrical passages being mangled so much in the name of niraval. If the purpose is to expose the artist's akaara, ikaara, ukaara sathakam within the confines of a thaaLa cycle then it should be done as newer variety added to our singing pathathi. No body said that after RR Iyengar, we can not further innovate and alter the kutcheri pattern.
  
  I will give an example. In Sivan's Senthil Andavan, if somebody does a niraval in "Velan, VaLLi theyvAnai lOlan", you can give brisk brikas or long kArvais in all the words velan , vaLLi and lOlan. But, if somebody ends lolan as " lo-O-O-O-O...lan" it sounds cheap and becomes a mere vocal exercise. Well it is not my intent to come and criticize the time tested successful niraval recipe for kutcheris - but to say in a forum like this to see if there are similar opinions or to learn from the "well informed" ones!
  
  Sorry, if I have sounded too strong (that too for a novice to this thread!). If there are personal comments please send it to my email address.
  
  -ashok (ashoksubra@hotmail.com)
  
  
• From: Ravi Kiran (@ 210.214.121.153) on: Mon May 22 16:02:16 EDT 2000
  
  ashok,
  i agree with you on the topic of mutilation of
  beautiful words in then name of neraval.
  bowever, one has to keep in mind that while lyrical sanctity is certainly one of the issues while singing, musical richness is also a equally important parameter.
  one cannot lay too much emphasis on the former because it is more in the domain of poetry.
  
  
• From: Nadopasaka (@ afppp31.buffnet.net) on: Mon May 22 16:47:41 EDT 2000
  
  Musical richness to some extent has excused the 'sangati' exercises initiated by Tyagaraja. Is the object of modern neraval to come up with essentially newer sangatis ? How do the neravals of a particular artiste differ with successive/later renditions ? S,RaviKiran and Ashok have stated the dilemma quite clearly. I feel indebted to all of them for this valuable debate. The CM renditions are obviously not poetry readings.
  
  Perhaps the bonds of language may be released after the first few repetitions ( which hopefully establish the meaning ). When this ethereal world is entered, word syllables may be less useful, and nonsense syllables can be judged by the way in which they are presented. In the infinite combinations available, the cheap and frivolous should obviously be discarded.
  
  
• From: nick (@ host.sumitomomarine.co.uk) on: Tue Jun 20 11:49:47 EDT 2000
  
  As a mridangam student I have been learning about this music over the past few years, but there are huge holes still in my understanding.
  
  One thing I have been wondering recently is how do I recognise neraval: is there any clue that I can listen for that tells me that what I am hearing is being improvised by the performer rather than being a composed variation, or is it necessary to know the song before this is obvious?
  
  
• From: S (@ wwwgate32.motorola.com) on: Wed Jun 21 01:14:54 EDT 2000
  
  >>>One thing I have been wondering recently is how do I recognise neraval: is there any clue that I can
  listen for that tells me that what I am hearing is being improvised by the performer rather than being a
  composed variation, or is it necessary to know the song before this is obvious?<<<
  
  Nick, knowing the song is not necessary for recognizing if it is a sangati ( 'composed' variation ) or niraval : however, knowing the song definitely helps a lot in providing supportive and anticipatory accompaniment. A lot of focussed hearing of concerts will definitely help u in identifying the diff betn neraval and sangati - it is not difficult. All sangatis pivot themselves musically in a very structured manner compared to neraval passages. Often, u find that at the eduppu , sangatis take off at the same swara ( or swaras in close proximity ) - simple eg almost all sangatis for the line vAtApigaNapatim begin on swara ga. Careful listening would also point to other musical pivots in the avartanam - the pivoting also depends on the style of composition. In Sambamurthy's book, he has even classified sangatis as those where the variations are introduced towards the beginning, end and middle of the cycle. However, as I said, the best way would be continuous hearing. Also, in sangatis, the syllables of words rhythmically pivot themselves onto certain parts of the talas more strictly than in niraval. Finally, u can identify niravals by recognizing certain characteristic aspects, such as keezhkAla niraval progressing to mEl kAla niraval ( slow nrvl to second speed nrvl ), niraval elaboration sequentially building on from lower notes to higher ones, etc
  
  
• From: Nadopasaka (@ akppp5.buffnet.net) on: Wed Jun 21 03:40:58 EDT 2000
  
  S, Nick, I read in reviews, for example, that so-and-so artist performed X raga , Y kriti and then 'took up' neraval at Z phrase or 'took up Z phrase' for elaborate neraval. This method/aspect of niraval would appear to be instantly recognizable, simply from the sequence of presentation.
  
  The meshing of the performers inspired 'sangatis' and the compositions prescriptions itself appears to be a different aspect of niraval, if this word is applicable. Perhaps someone can clarify.
  
  Is there sometimes a prior arrangement with accompanists regarding the neraval and its talam related aspects in kutcheries ? Thanks.
  
  
• From: S (@ wwwgate2.motorola.com) on: Wed Jun 21 04:54:54 EDT 2000
  
  Nado, >>>simply from the sequence of presentation<<< niraval can be taken up for a line during kriti rendition, and after niraval, swaras etc, the rest of the kriti can be completed ( eg niraval at anupallavi-s like vaasavaadi of srisubrahmanyaaya ).
  
  >>>The meshing of the performers inspired 'sangatis' and the compositions prescriptions itself appears to
  be a different aspect of niraval, if this word is applicable<<< I guess u r referring to sangatis improvised spur of the moment. In common usage, these r not called niraval. However, ur comment reminds me of a passage in RRI's book, where, while commenting on Veenai Dhanammal, he says that people may feel she does not indulge in elaborate niravals - but in a way, she always does niravals, since she preserves nothing but the skeleton of the song ... ( I have heard others say that Veenai Dhanammal school is very particular that the song be sung as 'taught', and improvisations be kept to alapanai, swaram, niraval etc ) Getting back, sangatis are loaded representations ( relatively ) while niravals are more leavened out.
  
  
• From: S (@ wwwgate2.motorola.com) on: Wed Jun 21 04:59:53 EDT 2000
  
  >>>Is there sometimes a prior arrangement with accompanists regarding the neraval and its talam related
  aspects in kutcheries ? Thanks.<<<
  Yes, sometimes accompanists are kept informed of intricate eduppus, uncommon talams, complicated pallavis etc.
  
  
• From: Nadopasaka (@ akppp23.buffnet.net) on: Sat Jul 22 04:29:53
  
  Web/Thread Manager, seems like ( perhaps in the process of updating ) threads last used in Jun 2000 do not now appear in Old or Current topics. Please check their status. Thanks
  
  

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