Indrajith (@ 203.*) on: Thu Oct 21 06:21:07 EDT 2004
Yes Hindusthani Kedhar = Carnatic Hamir Kalyani.
Raga Kedaris available in all forms like Dhrupad, Dhamar, Khayal, Thumri and so on. it is not a scalar rAga, amenable to reconstruction with elemental Aroha-avarohi phrases. There is much more to it than merely piecing together and summing up a group of tonal clusters.
The rAga employs all shuddha swaras and the teevra madhyam. Throughout the discussion, M = shuddha and m = teevra madhyam. The heart of Kedar lies in the following turn of phrase (pun intended):
S M, M G P, D->M, S R, S
The meeND from D->M is vital. The powerful shuddha madhyam defines the rAga's tonal 'centre.' The pancham is strong and a location for nyAsa.
Let us briefly examine the lakshaNAs and some of the supporting melodic constructs. The sound clips adduced later will clarify and reinforce these ideas.
S R S M, M, M G P
The gandhAr is used lightly (alpatva) as a vault from madhyam to the pancham. A variation on the uThAva (launch) - S M (G)m, P - illustrates the subtle interplay of the two madhyams, a feature of the rAga. The consecutive madhyams may likewise manifest themselves in avarohAtmaka prayogas: P m M. It must be emphasized that although the madhyams appear cheek by jowl in written form the intonation is not so simple: the slide is always mediated by a meeND or a kaNa-swara (grace note). In some traditional Dhrupad and Dhamar compositions, phrases such as G M R S or M G R S are observed but they have fallen out of favour in recent times. It bears mentioning that the proportion of the teevra madhyam is far less than that of the shuddha madhyam. In some older accounts and compositions, the teevra madhyam barely receives acknowledgement.
M, M G P, P (m)D->P->m->M
Upon arrival at the pancham a couple of options suggest themselves. One may simply repair to the shuddha madhyam via a meeND grazing m en route. Or one could execute a meeND originating on the dhaivat back down along the D->P->m->M locus.
PDPP S", S" (N)R" S"
P N (N)D S"
These are some of the prescribed prayogas for an uttarAnga launch.
S" R" S", (S")D P M
These are typical avarohAtmaka prayogas originating from the tAra shaDaj. Appearances are deceptive since every step of the way is laden with a meeND or a delicate curve. Swara ucchAraNa means everything to this rAga. The delicious swoop from the tAra shaDaj back to the shuddha madhyam makes whistle-stops along the way on the dhaivat and the pancham. Accurate description of such prayogas is beyond the scope of the written word.
The dhaivat is piquant but it is not a location for nyAsa. The role of the shuddha nishAd is ambivalent. It is not used for nyAsa but the proportion and manner are functions of the performer's background. Typically the musician's asthAi-antarAs (i.e. the canonical composition he chooses to amplify on) will betray the rAga-lakshaNAs. We will not point to all the auxillary strands and embellishments that make for the Kedar tapestry. Each stylistic school or region has its own manner of putting flesh to the generally accepted kernel. In this sense, Kedar furnishes an apt metaphor for Indian tradition in the wider context.
The komal nishAd is optional and when introduced, is rendered weak in a vivAdi-like role: m P D n D P. A final remark on tAnbAzi: straight tAns do not sit well with this rAga. Typically, the swara doublets SS MM PP and triplets SSS MMM PPP are executed, not a trivial undertaking.
indrajith (@ 203.*) on: Thu Oct 21 06:28:00 EDT 2004
**how is it that a song may be played using Sa, Ri2, Ga3, Pa, Dha2 and Ni3, and have the grammar of Shankarabharanam? Doesn't omission of Ma1 make a big difference in the tune's flavor? **
Just by playing the Gandharam we can make audiance understand that it is shankarabharanam.
The sancharas like G R S N P D N S in mandthra
sthayee alone will do for shankarabharanam. That's where the gamakam come to play.
"The Jeeva swara, the note that makes Shankarabharanam come alive is Gandhara or Ga in middle octave which makes the raga very soothing. Usage of the same Ga in upper octave (Tara sthayee) has an electrifying effect. "
indrajith (@ 203.*) on: Thu Oct 21 06:42:35 EDT 2004
Regarding othayila Ninnadhenna...I dont have any comments. You listen to it and decide for you.
I dont really understand how you people Mark the Shatjam from a film song that you listen Just like that. ( if it does not use tanpura or anything of that sort to Fix the scale)
By virtue it can be any of the raga's swarabedha group. rite?? ) SO don't call any song as it is of XYZ Raga. You can say that it is of XYZ scale.
For your kind information,
Scale is different and Raga is different.
By the way if you want some valuable details about raga Yadhukula Kamboji please follow this link.
Vel (@ 210.*) on: Thu Oct 21 09:41:41 EDT 2004
Indrajith, very nice explanations.
I wish we had more such genuine "knowledgeables" and those who also "participate/share" their knowledge..(and does not hold any "prejudice/shamefull hidden agendas" vis-a-vis any particular MD or particular fellow DFer..that sucks)...i really appreciate your participation and patient explanations. Last week there was a program in DD1 wherein they explained kedar. I coud instantly relate to a old song (i think it is ennuyir thozhi kel oru saidhi) which i have seen to be refered as 'hamir kalyani'..correct me if i am wrong. Can you, also explain more abt maand and the misra maand with examples? Does misra maand allow usages of R1, M2, D1 etc? Nowhere to be found out, the definitions..Not even in those "rotten" online raga databases ;-)
I wud still say that the song is indeed rishabhapriya, and perhaps as Indrajith said, you just may have to compromise with a few anya awaras. The same with "jodi nadhigal paadhai vilagi" (anbe odi vaa) and "amma amma endha aaruyire" (uzhaipaali) which are both raga kathyayini (who is bothered if the MD himself knew this...there is no way u r gonna find that out, if the MD indeed had the raga in mind...MDs may not have had the ragas in their mind, but they definetly know the scale they have used..its me & you who give the names, for easy reference...but the names of these rare scales per se shudnt scare our "i-know-only-30-keerthanais-so-pls-kindly-entertain-my-ego-within-this-boundary-and-dont-scare-me-with-the-unknown" mindset...)
Well....to clear some dark clouds hanging over this thread, here are some light-hearted usages of ragas (That too in the context of whether the "GAMAKKAM specialist Vs the INSTRUMENTALISTS", is right)...Here it goes..
"....Has anyone got anything to comment upon the folkish use of senchuruti in "aatukutti muttai ittu" and sree ragam in "solam vidhaikiyile" songs in 16 vayadhinile?...Genius compositions by the genius composer.."
:-)) Oops, i did it again.
vijay (@ 68.1*) on: Thu Oct 21 12:08:07 EDT 2004
Good points on scale vs raga differentiation. But it falls on deaf ears sometimes. People will be back to assigning x-y-z-saaveri raga to some godforsaken songs which no one else other than them would bother to give a second listen :-)
Srini (@ 203.*) on: Thu Oct 21 13:11:47 EDT 2004
Is the song 'Vaadi pottapulla veliye en valibatha nogadicha kiliye' (film??)based on any raga? (subhapanthuvarali??)
thumburu (@ 83.8*) on: Thu Oct 21 14:32:36 EDT 2004
Vel, You seem to be missing the whole point which knowledgeable(by your own admission) like Indrajith was trying to make. Again you come up with some songs which may be only having shades of Senchuruti or sriragam or based on that scale. That way, every second song in IFM , why TFM alone, will have some raga shade or other. I think the thread's purpose is to analyse, appreciate TFM songs which are strictly based on classical ragas (some accidentals may be ok) and not just scale. One need not sit with the MD to know the motive. IR has himself told in many interviews, he desn't think of any raga while composing. While that being the case, the discussion would be misleading novices like me when tall claims are made about some non existent ragas in a song.
Vel (@ 219.*) on: Fri Oct 22 00:44:46 EDT 2004
"...Again you come up with some songs which may be only having shades of Senchuruti or sriragam..."
Dont assume gentleman. I was specifically asking ppl (the "real" knowledgeables", not the ENT specialists over here) to analyse because i find a genuine reason for my claim. So a novice/naive instrumentalist (me) is asking a gamakkam specialist (sans any "prejudice/shamefull hidden agendas") abt his perceptions on a song.
Idhukku yen neenga tension aareenga puriyala..:-) Cool it yaar...Ungalukku therinja contribute pannunga...Otherwise, well...Juz forget it.
vijay (@ 68.5*) on: Fri Oct 22 00:48:45 EDT 2004
Thumburu, quite true about the comment on misleading ppl. In fact a participant on a TV music programme sometime back wrongly quoted the raga of a song to the judge and when the judge asked the source of her info she said that she took it from an online TFM raga database.That is the kind of "service" some of these online TFM raga databases, which are run by fan(atic)s of a particular MD, are providing.
I think one can start an online "raga database" site for even Deva and SA Rajkumar songs if every song of theirs is mapped to a scale :-)) I am pretty sure Deva would have atleast a couple of songs in some Sunadhavinodhini or Sumanesranjani if his songs are mapped meticulously to a scale :-)
purv (@ 137.*) on: Fri Oct 22 01:18:38 EDT 2004
But vijay, what if a song the notes of, say, Sunaadhavinodhini (which to my knowledge has not yet been attempted in film music) and the melody sounds different from Sivaranjani or Revathi, the grahabedham counterparts of Sunaadhavinodhini? Then, why wouldn't it be based on Sunaadhavinodhini raagam?