haris (@ 148.*) on: Wed Oct 20 13:37:18 EDT 2004
ok. I believe i have made my point clear in my earlier post. But for everybody's benefit, what i was trying to do is, to find a 'method' to srini's 'madness'.
our friend srini was listening to a song and felt that it was hamsadwani - while sai felt it was hamsanadham (me too). I know that the above two ragas are no way close to each other. But, i went a step further to find if the swarams are playing games with srini and found that their ascend and descend (swarams. not bhavam. not personality. etc. etc.) are similar except for one swaram. (that's a fact. no dispute in that.) So, i told him - this is the deal. So, maybe - just maybe - swarams are playing games with him.
There is a difference in a Carnatic Classical musician handling a ragam and a film MD handling a ragam (for him it may not be even a ragam - but just a scale - sequence of notes.)
When a carnatic classical singer handles a ragam, he is very concious about it and makes sure he touches the jeeva-swarams and signature prayogams (prayogams that defines ragam) frequently - so as to NOT send mixed-signals.
But when it comes to a MD, he may not care about the ragam (for him it is just a sequence of notes). So, there is no guarantee that he will touch the jeeva swarams or use the signature prayogams (often or at all).
So, in the above raga pair, if the MD uses PNSR (without touching G or M2), isnt it possible for somebody - who is more familiar with hamsadwani than hamsanadham - to think the song is in hamsadwani?
For the record, i second indrajith, mythila and vijay's opinions.
(this would be my last post on this topic.)
purv (@ 137.*) on: Wed Oct 20 14:03:07 EDT 2004
Vijay, were you specifically referring to my reference to Karnataka Khamas for the song 'Unthanin Paadal' (Raakkayil Koyil)? I genuinely feel that it is correct. It is NOT swaras alone that led me to believe that the song is based on Karnataka Khamas raagam, although the swaras used in the song are Sa, Ga3, Ma1, Pa, Dha2, and Ni2. It's also that the song had the same bhavam as you call it that 'Koottathile Koyil Puraa' had.
Anyway, people who are more expert than me can listen to the song and give their input. Will be much appreciated.
By the by, Indrajith, could you pls. tell us how you figured the song 'Othaiyile Ninnadhenna' from Vanajaa Girijaa is based on raagam Yadhukulakhambhodhi? It's not about my having the last word; I'm really interested in knowing the raaga characteristics in the song. I never heard the song before, and there's no guarantee I will ever hear this song.
purv (@ 137.*) on: Wed Oct 20 14:47:09 EDT 2004
Another question: how is it that a song may be played using Sa, Ri2, Ga3, Pa, Dha2 and Ni3, and have the grammar of Shankarabharanam? Doesn't omission of Ma1 make a big difference in the tune's flavor? Thus, wouldn't the melody have to be called by a different name than Shankarabharanam? (btw, this scale can be called Aanandharoopa or Suranandhini, courtesy of royal carpet Karnatik site)
I mean, I understand how even using anya swaras a song can still retain a certain raaga flavor. For instance, 'Kathum Kaathal' from Kattumarakaran uses the notes of Sarasangi and a few extra notes like Sadhaarana Gaandhaaram and Chathusruthi Dhaivatam, but when I hear the song I hear Sarasangi raagam.
What if you wrote a song intended to be based on Revathi raagam, and intermittently used Dha1 for decoration (more specifically, for gamakam of the Pa or the Ni)? Would the raaga still be Revathi?
vijay (@ 68.1*) on: Wed Oct 20 16:12:22 EDT 2004
Purv, not necessarily Undhanin paadal song but some of your earlier lists like the one here
-doesnt make much sense. Mere note-mapping exercises, to try to map a song like "kaali perungaaya dabba" with no depth/bhaavam in the tune whatsoever to rishabapriya or some-x-or-y-saveri. You need to listen to carnatic krithis in those rare ragas first, develop a sense for the characteristic usages/flavor and see if they have been brought out well in those TFM songs. Many IR songs have flat notes, devoid of the gamakas that are the speciality/defining characteristic as far as carnatic music is concerned. So it makes no sense to map those songs to some unknown raga and feel happy about it. We are just deluding ourselves. The MDs themselves might be unaware of such scales. On the other hand, for something a bit more classical like "karaiyaadha manamundo" I can understand the need to map.
Finally, I suggest that you listen to more TFM songs from the 60s as well in sites like musicindiaonline.com, if you are serious about raga usages and such. If you like Ravindran, you would love GR/MSV/KVM's usage of ragas
Srini (@ 203.*) on: Wed Oct 20 18:20:27 EDT 2004
Indrajith & Haris,
Why this negative air?. I just said am not sure about the raga bcoz i've heard the song only once. I also said "may be I shud listen to it a couple of more times." I wonder if it warrants words like "Madness". That really sucks.
I am in this forum to gain knowledge in an area am interested in, but not an expert at. So lets not argue about this anymore here in this forum.Hope you guys would agree.
purv (@ 137.*) on: Wed Oct 20 19:17:01 EDT 2004
'Kaali Perungaaya Dabba' does use the Rishabapriya scale. But being a dappanguthu song, the bhavam is really scanty. Now, I was NOT the first one to identify 'Kaali Perungaaya Dabba' with Rishabapriya raagam. I picked this up from the RaajaNGAHM site and Vel's Ilaiyaragam database. I was only taking their word for it.
haris (@ 148.*) on: Wed Oct 20 21:00:05 EDT 2004
Srini- 'method to the madness' is an expression. It actually is a positive one. google for it.
Idiom: method in one's madness
Reason or good sense underlying what seems an odd or chaotic situation or procedure.
Method in one's madness - an element of good sense in otherwise senseless behaviour
An adaptation of Polonius' comment on Hamlet's madness in which there are moments of sanity: 'Though this be madness, yet there is method in't' (II, 2, line 211). Method here means 'orderliness of thought'.
(needless to say , this is my last post in this topic)
vijay (@ 68.5*) on: Wed Oct 20 21:39:50 EDT 2004
Purv, dont go by online raga databases or what someone else says. Find out for yourself whether the song even has enough stuff in it to warrant a raga search/mapping. Kaali perungaya dabba clearly doesnt.Undhanin paadal is another flat song from IR that doesnt warrant any raga mapping.
Pradeep (@ 202.*) on: Thu Oct 21 01:45:16 EDT 2004
Lets not make this a fighting forum!thanks
haris:I think its not good to stay away from challenges...you should continue..I dont think there are any "personal" attacks in this forum
Pradeep (@ 202.*) on: Thu Oct 21 02:18:16 EDT 2004
For a change can anyone explain the differences for the ragas below.
Raga Kedar in Hindustani and HamirKalyani:
Whenever I hear Raga Kedar I always think it sounds like Hamir kalyani ..for eg the below songs
1)HamKo man ki shakti--Guddi
2)Pal do Pal ka--Burning train.
Is Kedar an equivalent to Hamir Kalyani in Carnatic?
There are prayogas like Sm1G3PD DPM2M1G in Kedar which I see being used in Nila kagirathu(Indira-ARR) song ,Harini Version.Finally can someone tell me does this song belong to any one raga..this song has been discussed before but not on time I have got an answer..